Why doesn’t the US Navy make its ships and submarines out of stainless steel so rust and corrosion isn’t a concern?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “hy-80 steel knife“
Why doesn’t the US Navy make its ships and submarines out of stainless steel so rust and corrosion isn’t a concern?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “hy-80 steel knife“
Corrosion is not the only factor that has to be considered when choosing a hull material for a ship. Things like yield strength, hardness, ductility and weldability need also be considered. There is a traceable line of history concerning the development and testing of steel alloys for ship’s hulls. This has led up to the selection of HY-80 and HY-100 as the current alloys of choice.
As for corrosion resistance of stainless steel, it is resistant to simple oxidation we normally refer to as rusting. That is not the only mechsnism for corrosion present in a marine enviroment. There are electrolytic corrosion mechanisms like galvanic corrosion which takes place when two dissimilar metals in contact with each other are exposed to an electrolytic solution like seawater. If no protection is provided against galvanic corrosion it will result in rapid deterioration and failure far faster than mere rusting. Stainless steel is particularly susceptible to galvanic corrosion. Another corrosion mechanism is chloride stress cracking corrosion. When SS is welded granular inclusions will form in the area of the weld. Formation of these inclusions can be minimized but not completely eliminated by heat treatment. When chloride ions which are suspiciously abundant in seawater attack these inclusions while the weld area is under stress, very rapid major failure can occur. There is an account of an icebreaker which literally broke in half overnight due to cracks propagated by chloride stress cracking.
This doesnt mean that other alloys aren’t attacked by these corrosion mechanisms, they are. I don’t believe there exist a suitable alloy that will resist corrosion completely in a seawater environment.
But with these two corrosion mechanisms affecting SS and the availability of alloys with superior metallurgical properties it can easily be seen why SS is not the boat building material of choice.
Which would you choose? A metal with high yield strenght and favorable welding characteristics or an alloy with average yield strenght and failure prone weldability, given they have similar corrosivity.
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Oooooooo, this question calls for a history lesson. Do you know why it is called “stainless” instead of “rustproof”? Mostly because stainless steel does rust just slower than carbon steel.
Take a carbon steel knife and slice an apple. Notice the apple almost immediately stains brown where it was cut? Before stainless steel, you had to use a “fruit knife” made of silver if you wanted fruit that wasn’t stained brown by using a steel knife. This applies to greens like lettuces as well.
It was found that adding some nickel and chromium to steel made it where it would not stain food cut with it. And, the added benefit of not rusting like regular steel. “Stainless” does rust but slower than regular carbon steel.
Submarine hulls are made of armor steel as the strength and ductility is needed to withstand pressure and shock waves that could be experienced from depth charges in combat. Stainless alloys tend to be a bit harder but more brittle. You don’t want a submarine hull cracking and breaking due to stresses do you?
The rusting of the hull is mitigated by sophisticated paints and sacrificial anodes, by the way. But, let’s leave the materials since details for another time and just say stainless steel is unsuitable for a pressure hull.
Aside…. stainless rusts faster than carbon steel if you are in seawater with a high sulfur content such as around a submarine fumarole. I had a stainless diving knife go yellow and crumbly along the edge after logging 7 hours down near a fumarole. Chemistry can bite you when you when you least expect it.
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Why just the US Navy? What about everybody’s navies, or their tankers, and cruise ships, and container ships, and yachts?
Basically, because the stuff is not really all that good in sea water. It only looks good, for a little while.
Stainless steel, in its most corrosion resistant and readily available alloys, 304 and 316, (304 is not really very good,) like all so-called corrosion resistant alloys, it actually corrodes like crazy. So fast and furiously in fact, that the corrosion forms a clear, thin, and very protective hard film on the surface, so it looks like nothing happened.
It needs oxygen to do this. If you scratch the surface film away, it reforms instantly, and life goes on.
If you take away the oxygen, bad things happen. Because if scratched, such as the routine scratchy wiggling that a bolt may receive, healing itself until it has used up all the oxygen in the sealed place where it lives, the stainless steel is unprotected, and guess what, it corrodes just like ordinary steel. Worse, in fact.
Pretty much every yacht owner has found one of these under his stanchions:
That is just stainless steel bolts, and pipes, which are commonly used aboard ships and boats. What about the plate that you really need to build the ship? Apart from the economic consideration that there is so little demand for 316 or 2202 plate in shipbuilding sizes and thicknesses, that it is really expensive, and about as easy to get as unicorn horn, it has a lot of problems.
Commonly to make steel go into the shapes we need to make ships, we heat it, quite a lot sometimes. Do this with a high nickel alloy (stainless) and it is no longer “stainless,” and it will look like the bolt above at the transition zone, where you now have two dissimilar metals, and current will flow, corroding one to protect the other. Aluminium, BTW, is soft enough to be “persuaded” by presses and rollers to change its shape. Stainless steels are too strong for this treatment.
Ordinary steels, mild, or better phrased, “Non heat treatable steels,” stay pretty much the same after heating, and the difference on the galvanic scale between cast and forged conditions is small, and so, therefore, corrosion is less of a problem. While not a non existent problem, it is one that we know quite a lot about.
Edit: An edit was suggested to drop the word “Non” in “Non heat treatable steels.” While I appreciate the thought, “Non” is correct. These grades of steel are not affected by heating, and are therefore little changed by the welding process.
When you weld something, the weld metal is, by definition, a casting. The parent plate is a forging. The boundary zone therefore consists of two different materials electrolytically, and of course, one side will be the cathode, and the other, the anode. And this will happen:
Or this:
There are alloys, such as 904 L, that are far less susceptible to corrosion, take a beautifully high polish, and they are used, notably, in applications such as this:
(And yes, that is my wrist)
Mind you, I would hate to have to get a quote from Rolex for shipbuilding quantities of their alloy!:-)
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While 316 stainless steel is the most common choice for standard marine fittings and fasteners, it is not really corrosion free. Exposed 316 needs periodic polishing and frequent rinsing, otherwise salt water laden air will land on it at night, then the water will evaporate. The hyper-concentrated salts will corrode 316. Trapping seawater in pipework will also cause problems, as bacteria will use the oxygen up and strip the oxide layers, allowing normal corrosion to occur.
There are alloys of steel that resist corrosion really well, like CuNiFe and the duplex grades of stainless steel, which are generally used for pipework. They are, however, very expensive and difficult to weld, are heavy, and work-harden, meaning that if they are permitted to flex, the material eventually becomes brittle and cracks.
Germany apparently have a proprietary corrosion resistant alloy for use in submarines, but I don’t know how they weld it or what it contains. A German sport watch company, Sinn, advertise that they make their dive watches out of from ‘submarine steel’
Aluminium alloys, also exhibit some work-hardening, but are relatively cheap, easy to weld and light, making a better choice for hulls and superstructures of semi-displacement and planing vessels. unpainted Aluminium is also very corrosion resistant, but has a thicker oxide layer and is not attractive. The low melting point of aluminium can present major issues to naval craft, however, as seen in the Falklands war and the failure of aluminium bulkheads in some of the British ships that were hit. Aluminium is also a real bitch when it gets painted because if water ever gets under the paint, it bubbles along like crazy. It is also very susceptible to galvanic corrosion, and the choice of fasteners, valves and bonding anodes is more critical, particularly if it is a Aluminium Magnesium alloy, as in some semi-planing yachts. Relatively small pieces can be electrically anodised, which deposits a tough silicate layer on the surface.
Although there are alloys of steel which might take less effort to maintain, none of them are as cheap, easy to manufacture and construct, and strong as the steel alloys used in ship production. Steel is also the easiest to recycle. It is actually relatively easy to prevent steel from corroding – Coatings of epoxy primers, care with mating surfaces of dissimilar metals, grease, and galvanic protection all help to make steel the material of choice for displacement ship construction.
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Stainless Steel 916 is the highest grade Ss and the
One recommended for salt water use. But it still rusts, not much, but a little . But a far greater concern is marine growth ( mostly barnacles) which attach to the hull and slow thee boat down a goo d crop on the prop can slow the boat down by 10% maybe more. And mayrine growth limes everything including Stainless Steel. A small vharge of alternating current might discourage them, or a generous coT of Lanalyn, natural sheep grease the stickiest stuf knoen to aheep.
Do stainless steel does not have enough beneficial features to make it worth while.
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in addition to all the answers here I’d like to add…
because Mines.
Mines these days are a lot more sophisticated today than the knobbly balls from WW2. You don’t even need to touch them to set them off. In the latter part of WW2 you didn’t need to touch them to set them off, so nowadays they’re even more sensitive.
Anything metallic interfering with a Mines magnetic field is likely to get the device very angry indeed, and even if it doesn’t do much damage, it’s going to make somebody go “WTF!” and things are likely to get very busy, very quickly.
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Stainless steel and water do not mix. Stainless steel needs to be exposed to oxygen, or the chromium can’t form a patina to protect the steel. In a marine environment, the stainless steel could get scratched, and there is not enough oxygen to repair the damage.
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while the US Navy may not use stainless steel for their hulls, it may interest you to know that they use a LOT of it in the machinery spaces for their reactor plants. The biggest shock I had when moving from naval reactors to commercial reactors was how much carbon steel or normal structural steel is used in a commercial plant. A Navy plant gleams with all…
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Stainless doesn’t mean stain/rust never. It means stain LESS. Leave a “stainless” steel knife or tool sitting in a bucket of water for a few months and you’ll come back to a rusty piece of metal.
Rust and corrosion in salt water will always be a concern, no matter what materials are used to build and protect the ship, so ships use a variety of materials, sealants, and techniques to limit the potential for corrosion damage.
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Stainless rusts plenty no argument. You must specify what type of stainless for any type of project. What type do you have in mind?
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Or they could make them out of porcelain. Then they would not rust or corrode or grow barnacles.
A ceramic fleet.
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Stainless isn’t strong enough. Modern ship hulls use 316 variety steel, Tough and strong stuff. Stainless offers corrosion resistance to the elements, that’s about it.
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Several reasons: by ‘stainless steel’ you probably mean ‘18-8 austenitic stainless steel’ or Type 316 stainless steel’. However, austenitic stainless is extremely susceptible to pitting corrosion in sea water, especially if any marine growth – barnacles, etc., – collect on it. You might get away with a ‘super-duplex’ stainless, but that would be very expensive. As it is, coated carbon steel is far more cost-effective, stronger, weight-for-weight, easier to fabricate, less fussy to maintain, altogether better suited for the service.
Don’t run away with the idea that stainless steel is immune to corrosion. They’re not. In pont of fact, they corrode faster than carbon steel. Its just that in a suitable service environment, stainless steel forms a passive film that protects it, so long as the passive film doesn’t break down for some reason. There’s a role for stainless steel, but there’s a role for carbon steel too, or titanium, or copper, or any other material. What you’re looking to achieve is the best balance between functionality and cost, and then that’s the best material for the application.
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Perhaps a better question would be, why aren’t ships built with titanium alloy, which actually would be highly corrosion resistant, and would offer the additional benefit of more or less equivalent strength for approximately half the weight.
Someday, when the cost of production is sufficiently reduced, titanium may very well become the metal of choice in shipbuiding. Corrosion resistant steels have their uses in naval construction, but don’t offer enough benefits to justify their cost for hull plating.
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For one thing, they’d cost a fortune. 304 alloy stainless is 8% nickel and 18% chromium. We’re talking tens of thousands of tons of stainless to build a warship hull. That ain’t cheap.
Then there’s the likelihood of them still being seaworthy long after they’ve become outclassed. What would you, as the navy’s top brass, do with these rust-free relics?
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I think the magnetic Signature of the Stainless Steel metal will help the bad guys. The USN Ships, boats, and most of the other other weapons platforms that are made to search ASW, anti surface warfare, are all trained to be Fire Fighters, and to keep the ships/boats quit when told. All P-3’s and P-8.s of the USN have a Magnetic anomaly detector or “MAD”… Well really all aircraft made to patrol for the “BAD” guys in the wet stuff. Until Capt Kirk, Spook, and Dr Mc get the recipe for the Clear Aluminum. The current materials used for the manufacturing the USN, have to be de•gaussed regulary to help make it more difficult to be detected bye eanyfor finds ships that are, or can be Deigoused….
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The cost would be the major factor. Stainless steel costs a lot more than regular mild steel does.
Chlorine attacks iron very nicely, even the iron in stainless steel.
In water, especially water with dissolved oxygen, the chlorine can destroy the protective layer of oxides on the surface of stainless steel and the corrosion of the stainless steel proceeds quickly. You often see this in pots that have had salty water boiled in them because the salt breaks down into sodium and chlorine ions.
As an aside, rinsing a stainless steel thermos with chlorine bleach wrecks the thermos by making pinholes in the liner.
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It takes no time to find out why US Navy built the hull of their nuclear submarines out off HY-80 – steel because submarines are built to withstand immense amount of pressure and apparently this steel is one of those, very good tensile strength characteristics and tough. I imagine that the hull would be coated with anti-rust material other ‘stuff’ that reduces noise and cavitation.
The Soviets used to have the Alfa-class submarine that has a titanium hull. It is extremely cost-prohibitive to built them, as evidenced by no one building any more titanium hulled submarines.
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cost. and stainless isn’t as strong as carbon steels
aluminium is used for its strength to weight ratio it also has good corrosion resistance.
one issue with ships is due to the combinations of metals on board causing electrolytic corrosion especially in bearings and bushings basically any rotating part. this is simply because ships are in water the ships own electric power generation adds to the problem electric current flows to ground buy the shortest electric pat…
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Do a test.
Find a piece of stainless steel (Don’t use 316L), and dip it in SALT water. Hook up the ends to a small battery.
316L is the only thing offering any rust protection.
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Cost is like 20 times more than steel.
Physical properties like strength, brittleness and fatigue resistance.
Working properties, the ability to forming shapes with heat, cutting and welding. This is generally easier for steel.
Stainless steel still corrodes. Ships have other solutions to corrosion, notably sacrificial anodes and lots of paint.
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Stainless steel is rust resistant, this doesn’t mean it won’t be harmed by corrosion. So with that in mind the slightly longer hull life gained causes a number of issues for warships.
the biggest reason would be cost, looking through steel catalogs the current thicknesses available are to thin for a submarine. At the moment a large number of submarines are rubber coated for sound deadening, this nullifies the need for corrosion resistant stainless steel.
now in a warship similar issues in thickness occurs so factories would need to be enlarged to supply the quantity and thicknesses required.
the other issue is flex, ships are always twisting and moving you normally can’t see it until it begins to break the ship. Stainless doesn’t like movement. I weld stainless steel for stock trailers. We use it some times for the floor but mostly for effluent ( shit) tanks. Were the stainless is joined to regular steel in the floor it is prone to cracking as the trailer flexes ( same on a ship) any thing welded to the hull that isn’t stainless will cause a fatigue point and crack this lets in salt water and air, this will begin to rust unless continues repair is preformed.
for the effluent tank it is basically a stainless steel box. When they become damaged it can’t be straightened like steel. Stainless becomes harder as you work with it, every hit, every bend, will make it harder until it cracks. A boat is continuously hitting water and bending as it flexes causing a leak.
To weld a crack the area has to be dry the fastest way is to heat it.( I don’t work on boats so there migh te a different procedure at sea compared to in a shed so their could be a different way to repair it) stainless steel expands a lot compared to regular steel of the same thickness. I had to dry a cracked tank,( the crack was from bad design ) in th short time to wave a flame over it to evaporate the water the crack doubled in size as the to sides expanded and pushed upwards.
not good characteristic for a ship that could be shot at and are already expensive.
i’ll make a note there are several types of stainless steel each acts differently and has different advantages, but they will still act as I stated above to a certain amount if not worse.
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A lot of good reasons here but the main reason is that it just doesn’t justify the expense. A warship will become obsolete long before the hull develops any corrosion problems worth worrying about.
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Stainless steel has real problems in some situations. I do not know the specific concerns here but probably the cost is the biggest reason. It may also be how stainless steel fractures and breaks.
Ships really don’t have a problem with corrosion they solve it with several means. The first is by bolting blocks of zinc to the hull. This creates an electrical current that prevents corrosion. Submarines are typically coated with plastic coatings these days too.
Actually one of the bigger problems with ships is biologics and the ability to stop the ship from becoming a floating reef. Recently robots have been developed to keep this under control. Before that a ship had to be put in drydock about every 12 to 18 months for chipping and blasting.
Weight is a problem too. Stainless steel is very heavy compared to aluminum or even iron.
Warships have to be quite flexible to withstand explosions and sea conditions. Stainless steel probably just isn’t very good at that.
Cost is the biggest factor. Stainless Steel is very expensive being about $5 to $12 per pound. Regular old Iron is about $0.25/pound. Even Aluminum which weighs a lot less is only about $2.50 a pound.
Shipping of all types is going through quite a revolution in recent years involving everything from materials to propellers. Composites are likely to come into much wider use.
Hope I helped.
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Hi Ellie
That would seem like a very good idea but i think the biggest factor is cost.Graded stainless steel is extremely expensive-i know i am busy building a jet pack and have had to put the project on hold due to the high cost of stainless steel.Also the grade of stainless steel for Marine Applications is even more pricey than standard stainless steel.
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Stainless steel technically is called corrosion resistant steel, because that is actually what it is. Corrosion resistant, not corrosion proof. It is NOT completely stainless, or 100% corrosion (Rust) resistant. Saltwater is one of the more severe corrosion resistant environmental tests of metals. I do not know of any stainless steel grades that pass saltwater tests without some degree of corrosion. Also Stainless steel in a LOT more expensive, and a little more difficult to work with.
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I don’t know for sure, as My invite to the meetings discussing such issues was probably lost in the mail. But I’d imagine cost is a huge factor.
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There is a very simple answer to this one. Money. The Navy can control the rust and corrosion using paint and other coatings.
the company I worked for had a brilliant idea and that was to sell stainless steel rebar. The problem with rebar is over time the salt and water penetrate the concrete and cause the rebar to rust and swell, the swelling causes the concrete to flake off, that is why when you see old concrete that flaked off, you will see the rebar showing through. They tried for years to sell the idea that if you use stainless steel for rebar, the concrete will last much longer, while the highway departments understood the argument, the cost was too much. There is some limited application now for stainless rebar but it is not widespread even through it would greater reduce maintenance cost.
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Someone sat down and crunched the numbers. Using stainless-steel was far more costly then dealing with the rust and corrosion over the expected lifetime of ships and submarines.
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First off, there are many grades of “Stainless Steel”, Second off, they do not eliminate rust, much less corrosion, Third off, the alloys used are corrosion resistant, Fourth off they have coatings on them for sonar signature reduction that do a fine job of corrosion protection.
Th…
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Stainless steel is not the best option for everythingaccording to a book called wonderful metals, (Ellsworth Newcomb and Hugh Kenny), Stainless steel hadn’t taken the world over because:
For some uses it is too soft
For other uses it is hard to machine
It is too expensive for yet some other.
So, I guess it is a combination of this factors, and there are other restrictions for ships, such as being able to be fixed on the field (a regular oxyaxetylene torch can cut regular steel, but not stainless), subs face large temperature gradients, going grom cold deep water to warm surface water, while exposed to vibration from engines, stress and pressure, might not be good for stainless.
And I don’t know how well a cold piece of stainless would fare against the impact of a depth charge.
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If it was made with correct materials to begin with what would justify the billions spent servicing the equipments
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Stainless steel is not the ideal material its made out to be.
For one thing, stainless steel is not rust or corrosion proof: it rusts and stains badly. It should not be called stainless, but perhaps stain resistant. There are many formulas for stainless steels, some more stain resistant than others.
Also it’s hugely expensive compared to regular steel. The really corrosion resistant ones are priced out of sight. On top of that, they are subject to certain types of pitting and attack in certain concentrations of sea water that make them a bad choice.
Structurally its bad stuff: brittle and hard to machine work and fasten. It’s not as strong or good for pressure vessels as good steel.
I believe most submarines today are coated any way, with a sound absorbing coating to make them less acoustically detectable.
There’s lots of reasons why stainless is not an ideal material for warships, or ships for that matter; otherwise all ships would be made of it.
And they have found other ways to manage the rust and corrosion: sacrificial anodes.
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Corrosion resistance is secondary for ship and submarine hulls. The primary is strength and toughness. Corrosion can be addressed with a cathodic system. Also, no USN submarine has exposed stainless steel hull. They all have anechoic tiles to absorb sound (sonar waves).
And as others have stated, stainless steel is not corrosion proof, especially in saltwater.
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Pure and simple: COST. Stainless steel is not really rust and corrosion resistance when exposed to salt water. The two most common SS are 304 SS (which is not really exceptionally corrosion resistant) and 316 SS (which has a major issue of chloride pitting at welds so it would fail quickly).
“Higher”, i.e. more specialty corrosion resistant materials would be multiples more in cost.
Its much much cheaper to build a ship out of commonly available materials (i.e. steel) and coat it for corrosion resistance even if the coating needs constant maintenance.
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If you think the current submarines are expensive at around $3 BILLION per sub, that cost would go up significantly if stainless steel were to be used. Additionally, the steel type that is used in submarine hulls (HY-80 – Wikipedia [ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HY-80 ]) already has…
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All steel will eventually rust and corrode. There’s no way around it. Stainless steels come in hundreds, if not thousands, of formulations. And different steel manufacturers are making new formulas all the time. The salty and wet environment of the sea combined with the high heat conditions on some parts of the ship is very harsh on steel and iron.
However, adding a ton of chromium into steel to give it ‘stainless’ qualities comes with drawbacks. High-chromium steel is more difficult to work. This results in more failures in manufacturing and greater likelihood of bad heat treatment. High-chromium steel also tends to lose toughness and become more brittle after a certain point. It’s also expensive to build a whole ship out of powder metallurgy steel, which has the least impurities and the most uniform and fine-grained distribution of all the alloying elements.
A highly-corrosion resistant steel is no good if you can’t get it to have enough strength and/or it’s so expensive building a ship would cost three times as much.
I’m not a shipwright or an army buff, I’m more of a knife kind of guy. But the question here is about the steel, and there’s some overlap with what I’m familiar with.
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– – – They DO make ( – Most of > ) them out of Steel [ . . HY – 80 or 100 Grade ].
– – – w/ some of them, they use Aluminium . . To reduce the weight, in the Super Structure.
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I’m surprised not to see mention of the 2012 book ‘It’s Your Ship’ by Captain Abrashoff who took over as commander of USS Benfold and tells this story prominently:
“One day, a 21-year-old sailor who had a paint brush in his hands a little too often had an idea. Why don’t we buy nuts and bolts that don’t rust… then we wouldn’t have to paint so much. Abrashoff loved the idea. So, armed with the ship’s credit card, a small team searched for stainless steel replacements… and now the entire Navy uses them.”
I see tons of posts on what must be the fact – that stainless slows rusting, but doesn’t eliminate it, but I’m not seeing any comments on this claim. I have no idea what particular parts he refers to, nor whether ‘the entire Navy uses them’ is accurate, but perhaps worth someone commenting.
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Costs. SS cost MUCH more than carbon steel. Why would you build a super expensive ships that has a large chance of being sunk? Carbon steel works just as well, it just has to be maintained. If the maintenance costs ever exceeded the value of an SS ship, we might build one.
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Stainless steel costs a lot more than mild carbon steel, and would still need to be painted with an oil based, corrosion resistant paint.
since it would still need to be painted it destroys the point of using stainless
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Stainless steel very much will corrode in seawater. Navy Subamrines do not have a corrosion problem tho
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They actually are made of stainless steel, as well as other specialized alloys which are sandwiched together to provide strength, resilience, and protective factors. All metals are affected by the elements in one form or another. Saltwater has an effect which cannot be prevented when it comes in contact with certain metals, including stainless steel. Since ships are continuously exposed to sea water, rust is inevitable.
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Because stainless steel’s corrosion resistance is a trade-off. Stainless is more brittle and does not do well where flexing is required.
While not made of stainless, the Titanic is an example of this. The rivets that held the plates of the ships hull were made of steel that was brittle. When stressed by the iceberg, they failed.
There are some alloys that has corrosion resistance and maintain most of the desirable properties of steel, but they are enormously expensive compared to steel. These alloys are also more difficult to repair. In a war, damage control parties would not be as effective at keeping the ship battle worthy.
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Most stainless steel are not stainless enough for a submarine. You would have to use super Duplex and it would cost a lot.
It is way cheaper to take a more economic grade of steel and to protect it by supercharging it in electrons with an active electric process.
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