How much truth is there to the 21 foot rule regarding self defense against knife attacks?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “21 ft knife rule“
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Written by: Xime97
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How much truth is there to the 21 foot rule regarding self defense against knife attacks?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “21 ft knife rule“
About Xime97
The less you train, them more relevant it is.
With proper technique, one can defeat a knife wielder inside of 20 steps, but you have to be very good, and very fast.
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Tueller who developed the 21′ rule would be the first to say that 21′ rule is a bad name for what he wanted to teach. The issue is to know and understand your reaction zone. The issue is this, “If someone has a blade or club, when do they become a threat to you, and how do you defeat the threat?” It takes a person a certain amount of time to draw and fire a handgun. If a person can use a blade or club upon you before can stop the threat with a handgun. There are several lessons to learn.
First, the reaction zone is different for different people. An extremely skilled person may be able to draw and fire from concealment in one second. For another it may take three seconds. The issue is how long it takes for an aggressor to close the distance vs. the time it takes to stop the aggressor.
Second, the reaction zone is different for the same person depending on how the person is dressed and how a weapon is carried.
Third, the reaction zone differs depending on the caliber of the weapon you are carrying. Remember the goal is to STOP the aggressor. Can you knock “the wheels” out from under the attacker.
Fourth, the reaction zone differs on the terrain and obstacles between the aggressor and you. (Three feet away with a ten foot chain length fence between you doesn’t put you in much danger.
Fifth, do you have an avenue to escape? Can you step inside a door and close it? Can you side step behind a tree or a car and make the aggressor stop and turn 90 degrees.?
What is justifiable depends on the totality of the circumstances.
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Here is the fact of the matter: the Teuller Drill is a good rule of thumb when confronted by someone you know has a knife and might want to attack you. If he is less than 30 feet away he poses a serious deadly threat and you are entirely JUSTIFIED in attempting to draw your pistol to shoot him if he does attack.
But all it represents is a legal rule of thumb for the use of deadly force and even then notes that you may not succeed.
If you check out YouTube you will find several videos that prove the Teuller rule absolutely correct, under one specific circumstance: if you see the attack coming and you do nothing except freeze to the spot and attempt to draw your pistol you WILL get cut.
If you do ANYTHING else, including falling on your butt while you draw, sidestepping away from his strong arm or best case running to the nearest obstacle you can hide behind the attacker is almost always stymied and must adjust his attack plan, giving you time to draw and put good shots on target.
So if you are practicing the Teuller Drill, practice THAT – don’t be there when the knife arrives. GET OFF OF THE X!
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The Tueller drill is completely valid. I’ve participated in it hundreds of times, and 21 feet is a critical distance in defending against the knife.
But Tueller needs to be interpreted with a dose of common sense.
First, the drill classically begins with knife drawn and handgun holstered. This is not the usual configuration for a “Knifer attacks Gunner” confrontation. No knifer in his right mind brandishes his weapon when he’s that far away from an armed defender. Like Mack the Knife, “he keeps it out of sight,” and launches his attack from ultra close, “assassination range.” Common sense.
If the drill begins just beyond the 21 foot range, the gunner may well score a hit, but it probably won’t be immediately lethal (if at all). Doing the drill with Airsoft weapons, most initial hits were below the waist, as the shooter “stitched” his shots upward from the ground.
Similarly, the initial cut was practically never “lethal,” as the knifer, by the time he was close enough to strike, was merely running with his knife arm fully extended, trying desperately to score before his intended victim could shoot.
He resembled Sir Lancelot, jousting at Camelot, hoping to get a piece of the Black Knight.
My most important lesson learned as a shooter, was to respond appropriately to the attack. If I had enough time and space, I would draw my weapon; if not, I would leave it holstered and attack aggressively with my best Hand to Hand counter-knife defense.
Some trainees never learned… always relied on their sidearms… and always got cut.
If you choose to replicate Tueller, take the time to play out other “duel type “ scenarios, like:
Knifer attacks from outside the 21 foot mark… and gets shot but still able to continue the attack up close. Defend yourself against his diminished capacity.
Standing face to face and belly to belly, armed, but empty handed, suspect makes a sudden move to his pocket. How do you respond, with weapon or hands?
Active shooter with long gun. You just have a tactical folder. Do you attack? Under what circumstances? What techniques?
Knife vs baton?
Etc. … use your imagination.
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It is good to have a laugh while reading questions and answers and it is good to maintain a distance between you and the person with a knife.
I have tested the 21 foot distance and found that my opponent also have a sword. I wiil defiantly say increase the distance as he might have a gun too.
I was never hit in my face in my life, I do not look back while running away. This is the best self defense as long as you don’t get a puncher along the way.
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Ah, the 21-foot rule……
There should be a law, like Poe’s Law or Godwin’s law, that states something like: ‘ for any discussion of a general principle, the chances of the actual relevant and important point being completely overlooked by people who will proceed to have furiously heated discussions over irrelevant detail will reach One, no matter how commonsensical the actual relevant and important point is ’.
Every time this comes up, people will pop up making comments like ‘ well, we tested it and actually we think it should be more like 22.3 feet ’.
Or ‘ We tested this with one guy and found it was 23 feet, but then he changed his Reeboks for Adidas, and it dropped to 18 feet. Should we re-run the test with Nikes? What about work boots? ’
The point of the Teller rule is that an attacker can close far quicker, over a far greater distance, than you would reasonably expect (well, unless you’ve thought about the Teller rule). The Teller rule’s 21 feet is a good rule-of-thumb, but the actual precise distance is not that relevant.
The point is this: a committed attacker can decide to act – that is, go from a standing start to a high closing speed, and cover a lot of ground, in a quite short amount of time.
While they are doing this, the defender – their attack-ee – is re acting : observing this, orienting themselves (processing and working out exactly what they are seeing), making a decision based on this, and then acting on that decision – the OODA loop . It takes time to get to the end of that process and carry out the defensive action that has been decided on, and in that time, the attacker can cover a lot of ground, because they are already four steps ahead – they are already acting before the defender is observing them act.
21 feet is a big distance. Because of that it is very common in tense ‘stand off’ type situations for the defender to allow the distance to shrink – because they subconsciously think they are still safe at any distance outside of touching distance.
The point is that they are not, and that they need to keep a potential attacker a long distance away from them – longer than they might think. 21 feet, 25 feet, 30 feet. The precise distance is not relevant – it just needs to be a long way away.
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I’ve done this multiple times. It is very difficult to identify a threat, draw your weapon, and accurately discharge it against a rapidly advancing opponent at or within 21 feet away.
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It’s pretty valid. 21 ft is a pretty large distance for a knife attack, sure. But the guy with the gun is reacting, so the attacker has already closed most of the distance. Then you factor in how fit and competent the guy with the knife is vs the guy with the gun. The distance in the rule can get larger. Let’s say the guy with the knife instead had something longer like a sword or a machete. The distance gets large again because he has more reach. The guy with the knife would also have momentum when he’s charging so the guy with the gun should probably still get out of the way because bullets aren’t necessarily gonna stop the knife guy’s movement completely. That’s also before you factor in shock. It’s sort of like like when you shoot a deer and it runs away even though it was hit and you gotta track the blood trail until you find the body. Mix that momentum and shock thing with the fact that the knife guy has a sharp object that could still potentially be driven into you and if he’s really close by the time the gun guy gets a shot off, gravity could possibly play a role in it too. My idea to account for this is to quickly sidestep while drawing the gun. It might buy you more time than stepping backwards because the knife guy has to turn quickly so he loses about half a second there, plus he risks losing his balance turning at that speed , which can by you another second. It also gives him more distance to cover. A second or two may not seem like like much, but in a situation where the 21 ft rule applies, every second counts. If you look at most martial arts(both unarmed and armed), they emphasize sidestepping over stepping backwards in order to counter your opponent. There is a reason for that. It moves you out of the way and sets you up for a counterattack. The same could be applied for the 21 ft rule.
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This is the Teller Rule. Well, not a rule per se, but a guidline.
Here’s the thing – the Teller rule’s 21 feet is a good rule-of-thumb. But not everyone has the same size thumb. It’s a good starting template, but every situation is unique. What it really points out is this: distance is your friend.
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All things considered when it comes to knives I’d rather be in Philly than to face someone with a blade. I had to fight one and yeah I was able to disarm him. Second time I had to disarm someone with a blade and I kicked it out of the way. Then it was all over. I had no choice in the matter, I either fought the first asshole or I was going to get cut or stabbed. Second time was to save the life of someone close to me.
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How much truth is there to the 21 foot rule regarding self defense against knife attacks?
The Tueller Drill began as a series of tests conducted by Sergeant Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City Police Department. They were designed to determine what the “safe” distance for a knife attacker would be- i.e. how close could the officer let them get before they would be able to reach and stab the officer quicker than the officer could draw and fire their sidearm.
As it turned out, the answer was 21 feet.
Modern US police forces still use the Tueller Drill, which is a training exercise based on those tests. It’s designed to drill that safe distance into an officer’s mind, so that they never let a potential threat get within it without drawing their firearm. It’s also designed to teach the officers to draw quickly and fire under pressure.
If that distance was wrong, I think someone would have realised by now. The police do have a vested interest in ensuring it’s accurate, after all.
It was also tested by Mythbusters, and they found it to be accurate too.
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It is useless information.
I can work at about 5 foot BUT it is only when I know the drill is on.
Just try waking up out of your normal state of low-readiness and realizing you need to shoot someone. If you see someone approaching you don’t just draw and shoot. It takes time to be alerted, to realize you may be attacked, to decide to deploy weapon… and THEN to do it. In drill you just draw and shoot. It is entirely different than real life.
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How much truth is there to the 21 foot rule regarding self defense against knife attacks?
Its not a rule. It’s a drill.
The Tueller Drill Myth: Why The 21 Foot Rule Isn’t a Rule At All – ITS Tactical
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The Tueller Drill is intended as a “guide”.
There are numerous examples of it being demonstrated on YouTube. The TV show Mythbusters devoted a program to it.
SGT Tuellers experiments demonstrated that if a potential knife or club-armed assailant is within approximately 21 feet of a Defender , they can close the distance and strike a lethal blow before the Defender can draw and shoot enough to prevent the landing of the blow or cut.
Someone within that distance has the OPPORTUNITY to kill the Defender.
Thats all the Tueller Drill demonstrates. The Defenders actual JEOPARDY must be determined by the actual circumstances.
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We tested this in one of Massad Ayoob’s classes. An 80 year old man sprinted 21 feet and tapped a man on the shoulder as he went by, before the shooter could draw and fire. Everyone else was even faster. If your attacker is within 21 feet, you better have your gun out and in your hand.
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The Tueller drill is accurate, anyone with a knife within that distance can kill you before you can draw and shoot if you let them take the advantage. Indeed, recent thinking is that thirty feet is more accurate and I have heard of police training that says fifty feet is the safe zone. However, the term “rule” is sometimes misunderstood. Here is an excellent article to give you food for thought. The Tueller Drill Myth: Why The 21 Foot Rule Isn’t a Rule At All – ITS Tactical
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Pretty accurate. If your firearm is not in your hand, someone within that distance can reach you before you can fire. Moral of the story- never think “Hey! He’s only got a knife!” Even with a gun IN your hand- it’s still chancy.
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Not only WOULD Tueller be the “first to say” that “rule” is a bad way to say it as another poster mentioned, he actually HAS said it numerous times in the intervening years.
There is no “21 foot rule.” This is a bastardization of his demonstration.
A link to an interview with Tueller himself:
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The Force Science Institute runs tests on a lot of police situations. They validated this rule in their tests.
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Unless you are very skilled with a firearm and have trained for this possibility you are going to get stabbed. There are very few ways to defend against a knife within 21 feet
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Very! an attacker can run and erase that distance to stab/slash very quickly. A gunman has seconds to draw and fire to stop the threat.
thats why small caliber guns like .22lr are not the best for conceal carry. sure you will get a hit on that knife wielding person. But they will be hacking you while you try to fill them with holes. That 22 round may cause them to bleed out on the ER table, but long after you bleed to death as well, You need to carry a large caliber gun. Which has some stopping power. 9mm-40–45 cal. you shoot to stop the threat. not to kill.
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The Department of Justice did a study sometime back about violence, injuries, and those killed during personal attacks. In it was noted that there was as high of a chance of serious injury from attacks where a knife was used as when there was a gun involved. They attributed this to a couple of things. First that attacks where a knife was used the attacks took place up close and personal and so the risk is just as great or maybe even more so than when a firearm was used. Those involving a firearm would sometimes take place at greater distances of several feet or more usually. That and the ability for the gun holder to operate and use their weapon effectively and accurately hit what they were shooting at was more of a factor in this. So much so that an attack by someone with a knife was just as deadly as that by someone with a firearm. That being said the 21 foot rule has a lot of validity I think.
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It is called the “Tuller Drill,” not the “21 foot rule.”
It is completely valid.
What tends not to be valid is certain interpretations of the drill.
The person with the handgun has it in his holster with his hand off of it. The person with the knife runs to the person with the handgun, and most of the time people not trained to an advanced level can’t draw and hit the target in the COM before the attacker is close enough to stab him.
Some people interpret this as meaning a knife is superior to a pistol at 21 feet or closer, and that the guy with the knife “wins” against the guy with the gun. The drill shows that the guy with the knife will usually get shot, but not before he can inflict a fatal injury. Both guys getting potentially fatal injuries is not “winning.”
Many people also seem to miss that this is based on a holstered handgun. If the handgun is drawn, the outcome will be different.
The drill is meant to show the officer or armed citizen that an attacker with a knife is dangerous at 21 feet or closer, and that they should have their weapon ready and also move away from the attack, not just stand and shoot like at a target range.
Another issue is that someone actually trained in using a knife will attack from much closer, and if someone was trained the way I was they could do so at contact distance. In training, when a training partner doesn’t take defenses seriously and relies on taking punches, I’ll sometimes “punch” them and then show them that my “punch” was an attack with a knife using a Cold Steel Recon Tanto trainer which has a 7″ blade and is maybe a foot overall. These guys are often black belts and they never see the knife. In real life, people won’t generally carry something so large, and the pocketknives they carry will be difficult to see.
I was tested with the Tuller Drill at the end of an advanced combat handgun class. I passed, but that was because I was very fast due to the training I was taking, and counting the intermediate class it was at the end of six weekends of training. I’m probably not that fast now.
In a real life scenario, fighting isn’t restricted to “unarmed fighting,” “gun fighting,” or “knife fighting.” You might need unarmed skills to buy the time you need to use your gun, and this might be just for the time it takes you to draw and aim.
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Studies have shown it to be valid. I understand now they have extended that 21 feet to 30 feet, or 10 yards, nearly 10 meters.
My Concealed Handgun course instructor, an ex LEO, reported his training on it was clear. He could have his (unloaded) gun out, at “low ready” (pointed at the floor, both hands on it), and a guy with a rubber knife 21 feet away could rush him, and land at least one “stab” with that rubber knife before he could raise his gun and shoot. Time after time it worked, and he KNEW it was coming, just not exactly when.
Fewer than one trainee in 10 could get off a shot in that time – those who had extraordinarily quick reflexes, or who could sense the tension in the “bad guy”. I’m told a good cop knows when someone is about to “do something” when the bad guy’s pupils suddenly constrict. I suppose there may be a way to sense muscle tension, too.
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