How does the Damascus sword compare to the Katana? Is it superior or inferior to the katana?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “japanese folded steel knife“
About Serenity
Written by: Serenity
Published on:
How does the Damascus sword compare to the Katana? Is it superior or inferior to the katana?
You can check the answer of the people under the question at Quora “japanese folded steel knife“
About Serenity
How do I even start.
1 – About the Katana :
This is a Katana.
It is a type of sword. You can make it with any steel ! Even with the “ damascus steel ” you are talking about. Or with spring steel, crucible steel, stainless steel..
Traditionally it was made with Tamahagane steel but most Katana today are not.
2 – About Damascus Steel :
This most people would call Damascus Steel, but it is not Damascus Steel . At least, not true Damascus Steel. It is called Pattern welded steel .
It is an entirely different method of making steel. Pattern welding is called Damascus Steel most as a marketing trick, since Damascus Steel is known for being good.
This is Damascus Steel, true one.
3 – Tamahagane vs Pattern Welded Steel :
Tamhagane (historical katana steel) is folded to burn inner impurities through oxydation, as well as to make the carbon level and impurity level uniform across the blade.
Just like pattern wielded steel !
So, Katana Steel (Tamahagane) is a kind of Pattern Welded Steel (aka Fake Damascus Steel) due to its folding.
However, Katanas can also be composite, meaning made of different kinds of steel. Most Katana are Maru, not composite.
( The following given equal steel quality and craftsmanship )
4 – Composite Tamahagane Katana vs True Damascus Steel Sword :
If we compare both highest qualities some things are to note :
Katanas bend – A laminated Katana bending after abuse is normal, due to the use of both soft and hard steel, it bends where a sword made with hard steel would break.
So, unlike some misconceptions, a Katana bending is not a bad thing, better than have it snap.
Then you can bend it back in the opposite direction !
Katanas are differential hardened – Which causes them to have a Hamon ( part of the blade with harder steel ).
Also, the Steel on the edge is very hard one on laminated katanas. So, it holds an edge well. And doesn’t snap easily thanks to the laminated structure incorporating soft steel capable of bending.
The Damascus steel refers to using a specific ore that does not exist anymore. Wootz steel is very close in appearence and properties to Damascus steel. However, Wootz can be made with any kind of iron.
Thanks to that ore, true Damascus Steel contains carbon nanotubes – As well as nanowires. This structure makes the Damascus Steel sword harder, while also giving it higher structural integrity, whereas standard hardening makes the blade more likely to snap.
Wanbasion Black Stainless Steel Knife Set, Sharp Kitchen Knife
True Damascus forging techniques have been lost to time. For their time, they were fabled for their extraordinary strength and enduring sharpness. Nowadays, many smiths fold the steel the same way smiths once forged Damascus, but today’s smiths don’t know what other steps were taken to create authentic Damascus steel. There has been a lot of research and debate over this issue. Some think Damascus had no added ingredients and that the heat treatment technique was responsible for the toughness. Others believe the smiths added something, like straw or even dung, to the forge’s flames. We don’t know who is right. Many smiths have come up with ways to make a very strong folded steel they claim is Damascus.
The usual “Damascus” you see today doesn’t refer to the ancient steel by the same name but refer to only the APPEARANCE of that steel. That is alternating layers of steel visible from the forging process. This is called pattern welding or just folding.
Back in the day, the entire blade was made from the folded steel. Nowadays, Damascus is typically done with softer cladding steel (the stuff that goes on the sides of the blade) and use the Damascus to laminate the cutting steel core, which is the stuff that actually makes the cutting edge of the knife/sword. It’s basically a steel sandwich of Damascus + core + Damascus. An acid etch is often done on the finished blade to make the alternating layers of steel more visible.
Pure modern steels and advanced modern metallurgy creates metal of amazing purity and consistency, which outperform anything the old masters could create. Folding is actually not necessary and can be detrimental to the sturdiness of the finished product. Folding that encompasses the edge steel also creates edge properties that vary among the alternating layers, which is undesirable. It’s better to have good steel all the way along the edge without any changes in their hardnesses and other properties.
The design of the sword and the context of the sword’s use matter more these days. Because of the high quality of our modern steels and our ability to distribute all the elements we want evenly throughout the steel, possible poor steel quality is no longer a factor that needs to be addressed in the sword’s design.
Today’s tough spring-tempered monosteel swords are probably going to be way stronger and more reliable than any vintage katana or true Damascus sword. Modern swords are not only cheaper but better, although some may think they are uglier. They are the top choice of today’s practitioners of almost all swordsmanship arts.
If you’re looking to compare individual ancient swords, this is an impossible question to answer. Each piece will vary in steel quality, length, weight, and other attributes.
Amazon Basics 14-Piece Kitchen Knife Block Set, High-Carbon
Damascus steel is a loose term which mainly refers to the watery patterns that appear on the blade after acid etching. This can be caused by both pattern welding as well as crucible steel. Pattern welding is essentially welding together different types of metal to create certain qualities in the blade. (Welding and hammering together repeatedly to create an ingot). Crucible steel is melting together metal and charcoal (for the carbon) in a clay or ceramic crucible to make a high carbon ingot.
The prized, ancient damascus steel are actually swords made in Damascus and other regions, using wootz ingots from India. (Most probably Hyderabad). These wootz ingots, due to the proportion of hard metals in them, specially containing vanadium, most probably caused the distinctive patterns in the end product. It of course also gave the sword a very high quality sharpness and toughness. It should more properly be called Indian steel, since it originated in India, although the most famous versions of the swords were found in the Arabian and Persian regions.
It is said that people forgot how to make these swords. Most probably, they simply ran out of the true wootz ingots from south india. The metallurgical qualities required were already in the iron, after all, the swords smiths did not know the chemical composition required, they simply knew how to work with this particular, rare, expensive, iron ingot. When the raw materials ran out, the art and skills also died out, and most probably were never passed on to following generations of blacksmiths, hence the great mystery.
I have not forged either a katana or a wootz blade. True wootz blades are so rare that very few have even been studied for chemical composition (since it would require you to destroy the blade). I do know that 4 swords were broken down for study donated by Zsoche, and the results can be found in this wonderful article The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades
The fact is, however, that the Katana was made by comparatively poor quality iron, which is why they had to use pattern welding, simply to homogenize the steel, and also most probably because they didn’t have a whole lot of pure iron lying around to begin with. With no disrespect to the enormous love everyone has for katanas and japanese swordsmiths, it seems logical that quite simply, Wootz steel swords would be far better, as they would enjoy a significant metallurgical advantage. Of course, Katanas can be made anywhere, since they don’t require a particular type of ingot, so in terms of being a weapon, they are superior, since we can still actually make them, whereas wootz ingots cannot be found anymore, so we cannot actually make a wootz sword, although this gentleman Niels Provos has tried to make the ingots. This is an amazing 4 part video series by the way, well worth watching.
Chicago Cutlery Belden 15 Piece Premium Kitchen Knife
Being a military history buff, my understanding is that Damascus blades are a multi-layer blade that is created by repeatedly folding the hot steel billet onto itself, pounding it thin, reheating, and continuing the process until dozens or more layers are created in the blade. The same process was essentially used by the Japanese in their blades, so that the Katana had many of the same characteristics of the Damascus blades. My understanding of what made the Katana so effective was its slight curve, like a saber, combined with its Damascus characteristics, that made it quite effective. I would think that there were European swords that could equal the Katana in many ways, especially if they used similar construction techniques.
Authentic XYJ Since 1986,Outstanding Ancient Forging,6.7 Inch Full Tang
Damascus is a form of ancient steel said to be incredibly advanced in the ancient world. Unfortunately, we have lost the method of creating true damascus steel. A period correct damascus steel blade should by all accounts be much more finely made than a period correct katana blade.
imarku Japanese Chef Knife – Pro Kitchen Knife 8 Inch Chef’s Knives
I have to disagree with Egehan’s answers below. Japanese katana, made by licensed smiths in Japan are made from tamahagane. The value of the steel is in the process. It would be unfair to both Japanese katana and blades made from Damascus to compare them as their uses and values are different.
12-Piece Color-Coded Kitchen Knife Set, 6 Knives with 6 Blade Guards
Damacus steel
Damacus steel was the name given to wootz steel by arabian people. They learnt to make damscus wootz steel from indian blacksmiths .Wootz steel is being manufactured by India since 600 BC. Swords made out of wootz or damascus steel were renowned for their sharpness and toughness at the smae time being very heavy . They were also completely rust proof . Maharana Pratap’s sword which was made out of wootz steel weighed 2.5 kilograms and was as deadly as hell . It is said that that Maharana Pratap Butchered 2 Akbar Commanders Along With Their Horses in One Blow
Maharana Pratap’s sword and armor
Tipu Sultan’s wootz steel sword
It is also said that when european invaders attacked arabia then Saladin’s (the king of syria and egypt) army butchered the europeans along…
Spring Assisted Knife – Pocket Folding Knife – Military Style
In response to those who talked about folded steel for Katana blades: True “Damascus steel” swords made from wootz ingots did not need to be folded. Folding was done to reduce unwanted impurities – Wootz didn’t have them in the first place.
A swordfight between warriors wielding the two would be fast, with the katana likely snapping off on the first clash. (It’s possible that an extremely high-end katana would equal the Damascus blade though.)
Today we use much higher-quality steel still every day. Want a sword better than any Medieval noble could buy? Just go to the wreckers, dismantle the suspension leaf springs from a truck, and sharpen a big piece into a blade!
Smith & Wesson Extreme Ops SWA24S 7.1in S.S. Folding Knife with 3.1in